Curse

MirkoTeran · Apr 28, 2008, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

Make it a '3 second' cast and 10 second recharge, lol.

If 5 ursans can't interrupt 3 second cast they should be just taken out back and shot.

Well, adding the same skills to all enemys.. now that would be fun.

Aldric · Apr 28, 2008, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rene Saliere

Lightbringer skills and rank are absolutely useless except against the demons and demonic servants in Nightfall.

EotN rank bonuses are useless outside 'native' areas.

So there is precedent for area based skill usage.

The Rank bonus' may be useless outside of EotN areas but the skills are not.PVE-only skills were a bad enough addition but to suggest compounding that with whole Ebon/Asura/Norn and Delver skill lines only available on certain map areas is worse that silly , its just a terrible idea. Very.

Ursan doesnt really bother me much , I do use it very occasionally on my Ranger , just for the sake of running something different though it can be a bit boring. I'm working on a nice Spearchucker build instead which is freakily fun

[Incidently it uses a Sunspear/Ebon and a Norn Skill and would therefore be non viable , under your idea , anywhere in GW...]

If you don't like UB then ignore it , make a none-UB party and get on with playing.

legion_rat · Apr 28, 2008, 12:27 PM // 12:27

/not signed

leave it alone and quit bitching. For some of us. Esp the assassins. Could not even get a group into certain areas, unless it was out guild and they felt pity on us, until ursan came around. I have used this skill for the mission it came with, and once in glints challenge. I dont bother with it but I am not saying nerf it to the ground either. If you dont like it dont use it.

~the rat~

bryann380 · Apr 28, 2008, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Here's what I would do to change it to make things more fair for all.

1. Remove energy gain while in bear mode. Skills by other players that would increase your energy will not work.

2. After bear mode expires, UB is disabled for (60...30) seconds and cannot be recharged by other skills.

Done.

Sab · Apr 28, 2008, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Ursan makes a complete mockery of the GW skill system. Screw the 1000+ skills you can choose from, just slap Ursan on your bar and 1-2-3 through the hardest content GW has to offer.

Tyla · Apr 28, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir fluffums

really, your complaining is because your jealous of its pwnage. i bet you all wish you could do that in real life. stop complaing or go play WoW.
(the place where everything is cheap)

The irony of this post tastes nice.
In WoW you get benefits for grinding....
With Ursan you gain a benefit for grinding...

zamial · Apr 28, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Ursan makes a complete mockery of the GW skill system. Screw the 1000+ skills you can choose from, just slap Ursan on your bar and 1-1-2-1-1-2-3-c-spacebar through the hardest content GW has to offer.

me fix

But seriously, the skill doesn't need to be limited to areas it just needs to be nerfed and the other blessings givin a little buff. Ursan was designed to be a warrior skill, It's pretty obvious, there should be a way to make it a good tanking skill and not the abomination it is now. Like say make the activation cost 10 adrenaline instead of energy. . . or have it so only 1 person in a party can have a specific blessing on a skill bar or both.

/not signed for this nerf
/signed for a more suiting nerf

Randvek · Apr 28, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

All I'm going to /sign for is a stfu already. All you see on guru is nerf ursan, nerf ursan. wtb threads that aren't a waste of time.

Zarn · Apr 28, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Please just leave UB alone.... It's a PvE skill... For PvE its worth having some power! If u want to be rid of UB, go perma pvp and stop whining!

/notsigned

Konig Des Todes · Apr 28, 2008, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mini Masher

I'm not following your logic here. Why can't some professions do high-end areas? Any reasonably competent team of players should be able to organize themselves in such a way that everyone can bring the prof they choose and complete any area imo.

and oh yeah... anything that kills ursan=ftw

Its not that they can't, its that others want specific professions in their groups. Because of this, sins, Dervs, mesmers, and few others cannot get a non-Ursan group for those areas unless they go with guildies.

In other words, PuGs=Set Professions and Builds, Always.
And I /sign for making this a Norn-area skill. Don't slaughter it for non-Norn areas, but make it a lot less useful *half as much armor and health buffs maybe*.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mini Masher

My guild is also high-end, and we don't ursan. We look at who wants to play, what they want to play, and design our build accordingly. Of course if you're getting your builds from pvx that may be your problem.

A High-End Guild that doesn't use Ursan? Dear Lord, My Prayers have been answered, Such a thing DOES exist! How I've been looking for one so. And it's recruiting! *Starts to consider leaving his half-Ursan guild and ask to join*

SirSausage · Apr 28, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

/signed

Ursan destroyed the fun of pugging and discriminations like "ZOMG URE NOTT R10 GTFO KTHXBYE!!!!!!11!!" are a daily basis.

Navaros · Apr 28, 2008, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSausage

Ursan destroyed the fun of pugging and discriminations like "ZOMG URE NOTT R10 GTFO KTHXBYE!!!!!!11!!" are a daily basis.

It's the opposite. Ursan made pugging viable again. Instead of taking forever to assemble an incompetent assortment of 7 others players with ludicrously ineffective skillbars - as was what would happen in 99% of PUGs before Ursan came along, which is why almost all the good players stopped pugging entirely - Ursan allows a competent PUG to be formed quickly. Ursan took PUGs from being a dead concept, into a thriving concept. Ursan is the savior of the PUG.

And R10 Ursan discrimination is a lot better than than the old discrimination that meant if you are a Dervish, Assasin, or Paragon, you had zero chance to ever participate in an elite mission team. Swapping out class discrimination for Ursan discrimination is great!

EPO Bot · Apr 28, 2008, 07:41 PM // 19:41

If i were to nerf ursan, i would increase it's hitpoints and armor wile nerfing it's damage output.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Apr 28, 2008, 07:43 PM // 19:43

UBD is actually worse now than the class discrimination.
sure while its nice to be able to do elite missions. now if people wanna pug it they have to be R10 or its always no go.

Plus the monks are some of the biggest idiots of all time in UB groups. i thought the ursans were bad, but i think many of the UB only monks are retarted

Navaros · Apr 28, 2008, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Pandra Pierva

UBD is actually worse now than the class discrimination.
sure while its nice to be able to do elite missions. now if people wanna pug it they have to be R10 or its always no go.

So they can get R10 then. It's not hard to do. It's easily within every players' power to get R10.

However, Dervs, Assasins and Paragons who could never get a party in elite missions before Ursan, were forever condemned to never get a party in elite missions and there was nothing at all that those players could do about that.

Therefore there is no way UBD is worse than class discrimination.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Apr 28, 2008, 07:54 PM // 19:54

i dunno as another point.
UB means now to pug you have to buy that expansion and grind up.
as it was then and as it is now
Guildies+friends>>>>>>>>>>>>>>UB pug

Tyla · Apr 28, 2008, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

So they can get R10 then. It's not hard to do. It's easily within every players' power to get R10.

However, Dervs, Assasins and Paragons who could never get a party in elite missions before Ursan, were forever condemned to never get a party in elite missions and there was nothing at all that those players could do about that.

Therefore there is no way UBD is worse than class discrimination.

Grind was never hard, only time consuming. You also NEED GW:EN to be able to join any PuG's that use Ursan aswell.
And the reason people hated against Dervs, Assassins and Paragons was because they were bad.
PvE is easy, and having a guild means you don't have to play with PuG's.

Rene Saliere · Apr 28, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazjun

Whether you ursan or tank and spank doesn't really make either way elite. A obby bonded to infinity and then having a nuke battery drop hell on everything around the tank isn't exactly elite.

Obviously the term 'elite' is bandied around a lot these days. I think we can agree application of the word is more than a little absurd in most computer gaming contexts. Perhaps we could make an exception for the top Korean Starcraft players. G05u!
Putting this aside for a moment, there is still more skill and even room for variation in the standard bonded stance or obsidian tank + support and damage in the backline than there is in ursanway. Quite a lot more room for variation in the options from ranged damage at the least. Paragons, rangers and mesmers all have a potential look in at augmenting the elementalists and necromancers. The tank can be a warrior, a dervish, a monk or elementalist, maybe even ritualist. A guild/friends led group with added free agent randoms roaming around is often a hybrid of the 'accepted' optimal build for the area.
Finally, the best thing about any non-ursan team is that you don't have to play the monk or the tank or the nuker every time you play! You can change your character!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazjun

And if you consider ursan pugs to be more anti social than normal pugs? So what? You know that most of the jerks who ruin normal pugs are also the most likely to run ursan. So let them pug together and leave everyone else to play in peace.

For me one of the more irritating mixes of poor character traits are ignorance and arrogance. The former could be discovered by demanding skillbar templates. The latter is common to both bad players and good players, but only in ursan teams are the two traits commonly combined.
Furthermore, in a more standard environment, many groups would be open to discussion with potential party members to discern whether their variation on a build was well thought out or whether they were just another ninja with a fire magic build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazjun

You also said yourself, most elite area pugs ARE set in skill bars (just like ursan) but also set in class (which ursan isn't). Which is also the other problem, playing with guildies is fun and you can run stuff you normally wouldn't. My guild likes to run warrior parties with necro support for example. And yes, we like dslash and perma KD. With MoP and splinter cause it's fun.
But I think you'd agree that most pugs that form in the elite area form to farm, not fun. Like I said, many parties form to go UW and FoW, but outside of guild groups, there are close to no pugs that form to actually DO the UW or FoW. They go for the armour, the spider, to farm he easiest and quickest zones. There is very little chance that some one new to the area will ever get to see more than the first room in the labyrinth for example. Ursan lets them experience more of the game. And people who actually have experience are willing to take them. A noob ursan is less dead weight than a noob of almost any other class.

None of the elite areas in GW is impossibly challenging for a group of novice players, especially with the increased access to UW and FoW since the Favor system was dumped. And really, if it is too hard, I don't want my games dumbed down - I want to raise my game. There's something leeching and pathetic about these posters who scream like babies that it's too hard let me go there or I eat small plastic objects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazjun

And you say that certain classes not being popular in pve is a different issue. But I don't agree. this addresses that problem, doesn't it? Lets the lone mesmer actually get further than the gate of anguish, or the temple of ages, right? Especially since there has been no other solutions or solutions in progress to fix the imbalance. I'd almost say that mesmers have been unwanted since prophs first came out. And there were tons of pugs then. Nowadays, they have no hope. And what was their most significant buff to the class lately? Being able to interrupt chants? Being able to FC signets?

I've been using my hero mesmers a lot recently as easy monk/boss killers, and even before heroway I usually found the average mesmer was a good sensible player with a good all round knowledge of the game. I usually found room for them in my pugs. I talk to my pugs! I admit it! I was pleasantly surprised to find mesmers are very effective even in power players' pugs against Duncan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazjun

Ursan is overpowered, but so what? If you're talking pure imba, imbagons and dslash warriors make a mockery of ursan. The dps of a dslash warrior is about 3-4 times that of a ursan (and you can get AoE) and you have perma kd to boot. SY and TnTF make a mockery of the so called defence of ursan, while allowing utility that ursans can only dream of. So I don't understand the outcry about ursan. A guild group running dslash can clear areas faster than ursan could ever hope too. I know, I've done both. It's usually beyond the grasp of the common pug, so they don't run it. So what's wrong with letting them have ursan? Especially since it allows people to play that would otherwise never get a look in without a guild.

I often suspected there were probably technically better builds, partly based on my own experiments. Which is to me, just more evidence against letting this dumbed down McGuild Wars continue on any longer. I am not prepared to label half the Guild Wars population as incapable of operating without UB. I think we can both agree there's a world of difference between a powerful team build that is developed by inventive players and a no brainer push button win the game template provided by the game developer like a cheat mode. Anyone with a sense of pride in their game skills should be asking why GW has become a temple to the lowest common denominator.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazjun

And that is my main point. Why nerf when there are far better builds? Especially when it allows more people to group then otherwise would have been able to. Why does it matter if it allows the masses a chance to play? If you want to nerf it, change the skill sets of monsters. The smallest e-denial would pwn them and snares would frustrate them no end. That would be a more consistant way of controlling it don't you think? Like dying nightmares in the UW. Rather than making ursan the one exception in the entire skill list.

Part of the reason I like the Norn/EotN restriction is ethical. UB without doubt is the most singularly influential skill in GW history. It has perhaps irrevocably altered the culture and atmosphere of GW. And yet it makes it virtually impossible for players that have supported GW through every other chapter to get groups anymore without purchasing EotN.

Risus · Apr 28, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Ewww. U don't like ursan, don't play it. Its like suggesting a nerf to all Earth Magic spells and Shadow Form, and Dolyak Signet, and VwK. Its a call because you can't use it and you feel others shouldn't be able to.

kazjun · Apr 29, 2008, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Ah, you do realise that pugging isn't all guildies and friends right? Sure, going with a guild group you can run whatever. But your stock standard pug? I think you're overestimating how flexible they are. When I pug, I'll take anyone who actually talks, and has a decent grasp of language. Most of the time I'm not even particularly concerned about builds. As long as they have a general idea of their role and the area, that's good enough for me. But I must also admit that when I pug, most of the time it's for fun with just me and a guildie or two, we don't particularly care if we breeze through or get spanked into next week. If I wanted things done first time 100%, I'd round up some friends. I suspect you're the same. But many pugs aren't like this.

And yes, it saves boredom if you didn't always have to run the same thing. Hell, when we used to do trinity farming runs, we rotated the tank spot each run cause it was so boring. Ele's, derv', war's. All had to take a turn tanking from one run to the next. But do you think the average pug cares about that? The fact that they grinded themselves to r10 pretty much says they're willing to put up with repetitive boredom if there's some benefit. Same with ursan pugs. It may be boring, but the fact that they are willing to put up with it as long as they get something in the end says they don't care. Or they may even enjoy it. To each his own. Especially if it means that a few of those pugging get the chance to experience an area of the game they would otherwise be unlikely to be able to get into.

And pugs actually discussing skills? Again overestimating pugs. Sure my guildies and I are perfectly willing to talk if someone thinks up a fun concept, and we'll create a team build around it. I remember when we tried to get as large a group as possible, all necros with minions, summons, EV sin with assassin's promise and pets. It was a bloody huge horde but was unwieldy as heck and got pwned by any heavy AoE. It was fun but hardly optimal. But do do think a pug formed for any of the elite areas would run something like that? That if you weren't all friends that you wouldn't get insta-kicked? Trust me, they know their cookie cutter molds well.

And yes, never said UW or FoW was too hard. Or access was hard (hehe, go euro). But pugging without a cookie cutter is most likely to fail or seem so slow that you'd actually see grass grow. That is if you even find a pug for it. Like I said, pugs to the god realms are really only for a set purpose (armour/spiders/chest runs/farming). To actually go and do all the quests, you'd sit around for hours and never see a pug. Or you'd get a pug all full of newbies that haven't a clue. You either did it with guildies or not at all. That was before ursan. Now you can get pugs to do those areas. And they'll likely get further than just the first couple of aataxes or the first two shadow mobs. I reckon that's an improvement.

And there's nothing wrong with mesmers. In pvp. Hell, I absolutely hate them. Both as melee and as a caster. But that doesn't mean your player mesmer is going to get into teh average pug, where there is typically no slot for you at all. You might take them, I might take them (and erys vasburg was my constant companion when I henched factions), but from what my guildies say and my general observations, the common pug just won't take them. Unless they actually make a pug themselves, well, see how many times they get turned down. And that's just in normal areas. In elite areas, they just don't fit the mold.

And that's the thing. Ursan lets them play without having to reroll a necro or ele. I reckon that's worth keeping as is. You want to teach them how to play? Change the monsters skill sets. E-denial and snares would ruin most ursans day. Just helped a friend through the fire islands on the weekend. Ran into those ether seals I'd all but forgotten about. Imagine what that would do to an ursan. Even better, replace chain lightning with empathy or SS. The ones who can't play will drop like rocks. The one's who do will adapt and roll it easily.

The thing about pride and ethics, is that it's a personal thing. What you believe isn't necessarily what others believe, and trying to impose your ideals onto others is itself unethical, don't you think? Especially for this case. If they agree with you, then they just won't run ursan. If they don't agree, they can run ursan. It's their choice. Nerfbat ursan to hell, if they agree, they'll be happy. But if they don't agree? They have no choice do they then?

And your point about not getting into some groups without owning GWEN is correct. But that applies to all skills. I reckon few fire ele's would want to do without NF simply for SF. Or necros with prophs for SS. Or signet of lost souls in NF. And there are tons of builds, both pve and pvp (where it's expected that you have full unlocks) that you simply can't do without owning a certain campaign. Or even all of them. But that's hardly an issue to ursan alone is it? Especially since the only real place I've seen with high ursan levels is DOA. Pretty much every other place you have your old school favs. Deep wall to urgoz trapping (though that place is deader than even DOA used to be BEFORE EoTN came out). The builds that run in the UW or FoW are too numerous to count. So you may be limited in one zone, think about all the other zones that people can play now that they were never able to before ursan.